We chat to the star of Gladiator II, Paul Mescal, about working with Denzel Washington, and adapting to Ridley Scott’s tendency to shoot things in a couple of takes.
Paul Mescal is remarkably down-to-earth for an actor who’s enjoyed such a rapid ascent to stardom. Having proven the breadth of his talent with varied roles in the likes of the heart-breaking Aftersun and All Of Us Strangers, he’s now demonstrating his strengths as a physical performer in Ridley Scott’s epic sequel, Gladiator II.
If the intensity of that production – which required a considerable amount of training and preparation for its complex action sequences – was a challenge for Mescal, he certainly doesn’t show it when we speak to him over Zoom one sunny September morning.
Casually dressed in a stripy t-shirt, he looks very different from the battered, embittered warrior he embodies as the vengeful Lucius. Talking animatedly about everything from the moment he first got the leading role over a Zoom call, to his sense of wonderment as he walked out on Ridley Scott’s gigantic sets, Mescal talks with the cheerful enthusiasm of someone who can’t quite believe he’s just been involved in one of the year’s biggest Hollywood epics.
So as Gladiator II prepares its march into cinemas, here’s what Mr. Paul Mescal had to tell us about it:
I understand you got the role over Zoom like this – a virtual meeting with Ridley Scott. Is that right?
That’s how it happened, yeah. It was close to Christmas time of 2022, going into 2023.
What was your reaction to the offer? Was it ambivalence, excitement?
It was one of those things that I wouldn’t necessarily have had in the map of my life. I was never thinking, ‘Ridley Scott – Gladiator II'. I never thought that was an entity that would ever be brought into the world. But once I was in the running for it, I desperately wanted it, you know? There certainly was an ambivalence, but… you kind of get a sense for these things once you’re up for something.
You know where you’re sitting in the pack, you know how much your agent is in contact with the casting director, and it felt positive. Then when I met with Ridley, it was so quick that I knew I’d got on with him. It was about half an hour, so I definitely wasn’t thinking that would be it. I thought there would be further stages, but Ridley makes his decisions quickly – which I found out! [Wry laugh]
That was gonna be my question, because I spoke to him the other day, and even compared to what I knew, I didn’t realise that he shoots with four to 11 cameras, and sometimes only asks for two or three takes…
Max three [takes]! Max three, yeah. [Laughs]
I mean, does that help you as an actor, in a way? Does it give you a sense of momentum?
You don’t really have a choice as an actor with that. When you’re working with someone like Ridley, you go with him – his method is tried and tested. I knew from talking to actors who’d worked with him before that he’s infamous for not doing a huge amount of takes. But he’s also infamous for getting great performances out of actors.
Also I think having had a background in theatre, it’s not the kind of ‘come in, try it out for a couple of takes, get it by take five, six or seven.’
You’re coming in and you really want to be landing it on the first take, and then anything you get after that is a bonus.
I was going to ask whether your theatre training means you’ve learned to be in the moment – you’re not thinking about which camera you’re performing to.
His process is wonderfully liberating in that sense, because you’re shooting the wide and the closeup in the same set-up. Like, you’ve got a long lens, probably 75mm, somewhere on your face, and you can’t feel the camera. He’s also shooting the wide. The camera’s never really in your face.
The production design is also set up in a way that you don’t have to imagine anything. You’re never looking at a tennis ball on a stick. I think part of Ridley’s process, and he might have said this himself, but from my side of things, it feels like he sets it up for you so you have to imagine very little. You just come in with what you feel your character is trying to communicate or express. That’s your job. That’s your one plot of land you have to look after as an actor.
Obviously, Ridley’s an artist; he draws his films out in incredible detail. Does he show you those?
Yeah – actually, as a wrap gift, he gave me three of the original storyboards. Framed.
[Gasp of unbridled jealousy] No!
I know, I know, I know. They have pride of place in my house.
Does seeing those early in production help immerse you in what he’s creating?
Whether it helps or not, I’m a nerd when it comes to this stuff. So when you’re in a room on your own with Ridley and he’s showing you these infamous storyboards, you feel like you’re in a museum of sorts. You’re seeing this great director, and watching how his process is unfolding, and how this has been a cornerstone of every film he’s made – his storyboards. His storyboards are famous in that regard.
But I don’t necessarily work in that way. It’s useful for me to see what he’s thinking, but ultimately, his shoot moves so quickly that you can only really focus on your job at hand. I’m not really thinking about the storyboards when I’m working, necessarily.
No, that makes perfect sense. I think what interests me about this film, as a continuation of the first one, is that it’s another revenge film, but it’s less clear-cut. It’s a murkier revenge film…
…and it’s personal [in the first Gladiator]. It’s between him [Russell Crowe] and Joaquin [Phoenix]. Whereas this is kind of against the entire Roman Empire, which I think is more challenging in that regard. But [Lucius] is incredibly disenfranchised with the whole set-up, and also, in the first 15 minutes, he loses his entire world. Everything is gone. So where does he place that anger? He places it wherever the nearest person to him is.
And the person who becomes the focal point for that rage, Pedro Pascal’s character, he’s not necessarily a bad guy. He’s a general.
I’m sure it depends on who you talk to whether he’s just a soldier or not. But I also know we understand the personal implications he’s going through. From Lucius’s perspective, it’s very clear until it becomes much murkier.
Do you see Denzel Washington’s character as a dark mirror of your character in a way?
A dark mirror… what do you mean by that?
He wants a similar thing to you, in a sense. He wants to bring down the Roman Empire, or at least control it.
Yeah, but I think our motivations are totally [different]. His is about the seizing, ownership of power. Mine’s about eradicating the pre-existing power we see in front of us. I don’t think Lucius has the predisposition to want to be a leader. He wants to burn the establishment down.
Maybe it’s just Denzel Washington’s performance, but it feels like you’re both driven by anger. His character says that you’re driven by rage, but I feel like you both are, in a sense.
It’s so interesting – you’re right, there’s a lot of similarities there. They’re clever. Their rage is a tool that they use. Denzel’s rage is a cerebral, calculating rage. Lucius has a physical hurt that is motivating his rage.
So what’s it like, seeing first hand, Denzel Washington’s process as an actor?
That was another huge part of the process for me, watching the genius that he is, at work. Now, we spent a huge amount of the shoot separate. He would shoot a lot of his stuff… bar the two-hander scenes that we have. I’d say my favourite part of the shoot was getting to go toe to toe in those scenes with him. A huge opportunity for learning.
But I was also distant from a lot of the stuff in the royal box. So we had these chunks of time where we’d come together and then spend weeks of the shoot on different journeys throughout. Post-strike, and towards the end of filming, we got to spend a lot of time together, which was just so amazing.
His process is so distinct and I was keen to avoid any kind of sycophantic… because I think that’s an impossible way for any actor to work if somebody else is coming up to them and bowing down the whole time. I don’t know – if I was ever close to being in his position, I wouldn’t want actors to treat me any differently than if we were, like, rehearsing in an off-Broadway play in Lower Manhattan. I think that’s the ultimate form of respect: looking at everybody as a peer.
One of my favourite scenes in the film is where you recite the Virgil poem…
I love that scene.
It’s absolutely incredible. I wonder what your memories of shooting that was like and whether that was also two takes?
Yeah, that was two takes. What’s great about it, though, is that you don’t pick that up [in a separate take]. You don’t go, ‘Let’s pick up the Virgil.’ You run the fight, and the camera’s [rolling], and the adrenaline’s coming out of you, and I think that was a real opportunity… I love characters who stay silent, because it allows an audience to project onto them. They’re willing him to speak. And what’s amazing about Lucius in that moment is that he’s speaking on his own terms. He’s not answering any questions. He’s making a defiant gesture of saying, ‘I’m not answering any of your questions, but I’m letting you know that I understand you. Take me on at your will.’
I think that’s when Macrinus [Denzel Washington’s character] sees, ‘Okay, there’s something in this boy.’
I just love it because you can’t fake the adrenaline. Because you can feel it. When I watch the film, I can see the heartbeat in my eye going, ‘duh-dum, duh-dum, duh-dum.’ I’m also very proud of that scene.
It’s electric, like I say. You’re obviously going to get asked a lot about fight scenes and things like that. But I wondered what it’s like not just to train, but to train to fight as a specific character. Bringing character to combat.
My big thing was, I had this idea of Lucius being this… when we were in Morocco, we’d see these packs of dogs. They have no home to go to. You wonder how they survive, but for some reason they still feel like these apex predators. They’re probably eating nothing during the day, but they have this electricity to them. How are they getting by? How do they go day to day?
I think Lucius has that mentality, where he’s like, ‘Whatever it takes, I’m gonna survive this.’ Because there’s a higher calling, there’s something he has to achieve. And I don’t think he’s sure what that is necessarily, but you get that feeling where, I don’t think he’s necessarily the most skilled swordsman. I think he’s stubborn and brutal.
As the film progresses, you want to feel as though he’s been in combat for weeks now. His body’s sore. Your body just wouldn’t move as quickly if you’ve been rolling around in the sand and you’ve been punched in the face 20 times in the last four days. So it’s like, how do you try and imbue that? Those were conversations I had with Ridley the whole way around.
I said, ‘His brain is moving quickly through the fights, but his body is just trying to survive, essentially.’
That’s really interesting. Can you give me a sense of the scale of those arena battles? I understand an awful lot was physically built.
Yeah, I think the only part of the arena that didn’t physically exist was a portion in the corner so they could get the cameras in. And I think if Ridley could have gotten his way, he’d have built 360! What you see is it – there’s very little CGI. I think they would’ve built a tiny bit up at the top end [with VFX]. The gates were to scale. You would walk out of the gates and go up the Via Apia. It was like this mini city, you know?
It was the biggest set I’ve been on, and probably, the way that filmmaking is going, probably the biggest set I ever will be on in terms of scale. Again, it puts me in awe of Ridley. There’s very few directors who can command a project of that scale. I’m not talking about crew – I’m talking about the lack of CGI. He’s a rare, rare breed that operates comfortably in that field.
Ridley said he’s already drawing out his boards for Gladiator III.
[Chuckles] He said yesterday about it.
Is there a role for you in it? Are you going to do it?
Oh no, we haven’t spoken. He was phoning me about something else. I say it just to laugh about the fact that it’s a real insight into his brain. That at 85, he just doesn’t stop. So anytime I say I’m tired while I’m shooting something and I’m 28, I’m like, this guy’s operating on a different level!
Paul Mescal, thank you very much.
Gladiator II is in UK cinemas from the 15th November. You can read our in-depth feature on Ridley Scott and the making of his latest epic in the similarly huge, 168-page Film Stories issue 52, available to purchase now.
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